WEBVTT 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:08.800 I am here with Elisabeth Herzog von der Heide. 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:12.800 For 24 years, she was mayor of Luckenwalde, a small 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:15.920 town about an hour south of Berlin. 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:19.000 Ms. Herzog, it's very nice that I can talk to you. 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:21.640 For our Sustainable Cities course. 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:25.640 In one course, we dealt with the dynamics of urbanization, and 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:29.640 what we have looked at so far has been such rapid growth in large 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:32.720 metropolises such as Hong Kong, the Pearl River 00:00:32.720 --> 00:00:35.720 Delta in China or Berlin and Paris in the 19th century. 00:00:35.720 --> 00:00:37.360 Century. 00:00:37.360 --> 00:00:42.760 But most cities are not metropolises, but small towns, like Luckenwalde. 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:46.920 And they do not all grow at all times, but there are also phases 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:51.440 of decline and contraction and declining economic activity. 00:00:51.760 --> 00:00:56.240 You have experienced all this in your long time as mayor of Luckenwalde. 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:59.680 What are your experiences with cities shrinking and growing? 00:01:00.680 --> 00:01:04.200 Yes, I would like to classify that a bit. 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:08.200 So until the fall of the Berlin Wall, Luckenwalde had 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:12.200 about 25,000 inhabitants and then, with the fall of 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.640 the Berlin Wall and the collapse of economic 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:18.640 activities, a significant decline began. 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:22.640 And the number of inhabitants developed, I would 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:27.400 like to say in free fall, to just under 20,000 by 2015. 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:30.760 In other words, shrinkage from year to year. 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:35.120 And that only then manifested itself in emigration. 00:01:35.600 --> 00:01:39.320 In addition, there was still the death surplus, which means that more people die 00:01:39.320 --> 00:01:41.200 than are born. 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:42.840 This is still true today. 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:46.040 But immigration has not compensated for this, but emigration has rather 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:47.680 intensified it. 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:52.400 Then in the cityscape Foreseeable fallow commercial 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.400 properties, i.e. production that no longer took 00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:00.400 place, led to brownfields, 80 of them in the city 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:04.400 area, i.e. the entire city area interspersed with 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:08.400 the vacant apartments and houses became more and 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:12.400 more obvious and it has to be said, but all of them 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:15.920 were already in very neglected quality. 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:20.080 So the Stand Wege buildings had already been neglected 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:24.080 in GDR times and now there was the absolute vacancy 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:29.800 and also the infrastructure, for example schools and kindergartens. 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:33.720 Children's facilities were no longer needed in this number. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:38.080 That was what appears to be shrinkage. 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:43.840 And the strategy we set ourselves at the time was to dismantle the outskirts. 00:02:43.920 --> 00:02:47.920 More than 1000 apartments were demolished that belonged to 00:02:47.920 --> 00:02:51.840 the municipal housing company, but the city should also still be recognizable as 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:53.800 a city. 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:56.080 Upgrading the city center, in other words. 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:58.240 A lot of funds were also put into it. 00:02:58.240 --> 00:02:59.680 The notebook, for example. 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:05.000 Then schools and daycare centers were closed. 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:08.720 And you can imagine that, a very painful process. 00:03:08.720 --> 00:03:13.840 Also very much accompanied by rain and critical discussions. 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.960 But behind the fact that the schools that were still needed and 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:22.680 also the kindergartens were then renovated to a contemporary STANDARD. 00:03:22.920 --> 00:03:25.080 That was the strategy, so to speak. 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:28.800 So that's the opposite story that we've heard so far: 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:31.800 urbanization, like rapid growth of cities. 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:34.600 I remember one of our first encounters. 00:03:34.600 --> 00:03:37.600 That was probably about ten years ago. 00:03:37.640 --> 00:03:41.640 You said to me: I don't know whether my city will continue to 00:03:41.640 --> 00:03:45.640 shrink or whether it will grow, because then something will 00:03:45.640 --> 00:03:49.640 have changed, especially due to immigration to Germany and 00:03:49.640 --> 00:03:52.880 the USA and also due to the dynamics of the metropolises. 00:03:52.880 --> 00:03:55.880 Development around Berlin. 00:03:55.880 --> 00:03:59.800 That means there was somehow a turning point and it 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:02.800 can be dated relatively clearly to 2015. 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:07.560 On the one hand, the influx of refugees, many refugees 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:11.560 have also been directed to Luckenwalde, but also the 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:15.520 connection Berlin Luckenwalde via the railway has 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.520 been put into an attractive cycle. 00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:22.760 And these are certainly factors in the fact that immigration from Berlin is also 00:04:22.760 --> 00:04:24.720 recorded. 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:28.320 Perhaps also driven by the fact that the housing situation in Berlin is of course 00:04:28.320 --> 00:04:30.160 also difficult. 00:04:30.520 --> 00:04:34.520 In order to have a good connection from Luckenwalde 00:04:34.520 --> 00:04:38.520 to Berlin, no one has to lose their job, but they have 00:04:38.520 --> 00:04:43.480 a journey of a 3/4 hour, perhaps from Luckenwalde to Berlin. 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:48.560 And of course, the city also has city qualities. 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:51.720 So in other words, schools and daycare centers are fine. 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:56.000 There are sports clubs, the sports facilities are fine, the 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:59.320 medical care, hospital, doctors and everything. 00:04:59.320 --> 00:05:02.800 That is clearly available in this small town, right down to a cinema. 00:05:03.400 --> 00:05:08.520 So urban qualities have been cultivated, developed. 00:05:08.840 --> 00:05:12.840 And then, of course, there is the fact that a growing city is also 00:05:12.840 --> 00:05:16.840 attractive for investors, that many of the industries that 00:05:16.840 --> 00:05:22.160 were fallow, for example old factories, have now been converted into apartments. 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:24.160 Simply because the market is there. 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:29.000 Now I would be interested to know: This all sounds like great forces, actually 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:30.960 from outside. 00:05:30.960 --> 00:05:34.040 And once you are in such a dynamic of downturn 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:37.040 and once in such a dynamic of upswing. 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:41.720 As mayor, you certainly did not have dictatorial 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:45.760 power, but you are a central figure in such a city. 00:05:45.760 --> 00:05:46.840 What was your experience? 00:05:46.840 --> 00:05:50.080 To what extent did you have it in your hands to shape urban development? 00:05:50.080 --> 00:05:53.120 So what, what was your own way of influencing 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.120 these developments to do well? 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.560 So I would always say that in the We see good city administration 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:05.400 and also a city council assembly that has to support the final decision and. 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:09.040 So you have. 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:13.040 I would say that we have not left it to chance, but are already 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:16.120 becoming integrated urban development concepts. 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:20.120 The first one was adopted in 2008, where an attempt 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:24.120 was made to network all aspects, i.e. social 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:28.120 infrastructure, economic infrastructure, sports 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:32.560 and leisure facilities, shopping, etc., health care. 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:35.560 This has been incorporated into such a concept. 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:40.720 So, and this was also decided by the city council, that was the guideline. 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:45.480 Of course, you are absolutely right, the city cannot decide many things. 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.880 But I would like to make it clear with the example of how not. 00:06:48.880 --> 00:06:52.880 We have decided that Luckenwalde will keep 00:06:52.880 --> 00:06:57.480 a station and that trains now run every half hour. 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:02.160 But we have prepared for it by shaping the environment. 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:08.120 We have turned the run-down station building into a library in the station. 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:11.200 So away from the jacket image. 00:07:11.640 --> 00:07:15.640 And we have created commuter parking spaces of 170 00:07:15.640 --> 00:07:19.640 parking spaces and in the meantime we have had to 00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:24.840 expand them in order to increase the attractiveness of the railway. 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:28.160 And that is again many aspects. 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:32.160 Luckenwalde is accessible, but Luckenwalde also does something 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:36.160 for the environmental network and these are things like that, so if 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:39.760 you have a development plan, then you have to quickly seize 00:07:39.760 --> 00:07:42.760 all the opportunities that are available to you. 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.240 Now you have already said a few keywords that have more to do with the topic 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:51.240 of these lessons, namely sustainable urban development, integrated 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:55.600 urban development is another, different term for what you have called it. 00:07:56.640 --> 00:07:59.840 The lesson was about us discussing different 00:07:59.840 --> 00:08:02.840 concepts of urban sustainability. 00:08:02.840 --> 00:08:06.000 And that's also a bit of a dazzling term by which 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.000 different actors understand very different things. 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:12.520 From your point of view as a former mayor, 00:08:12.520 --> 00:08:15.520 what is a sustainable city for you? 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:20.560 So one point, if you don't deny climate change, and the 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:24.560 majority here in this city don't do that, and also the political 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:29.320 leaders, then you know that a city also has to make its contribution. 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:33.920 So if we know that traffic is a big, a big driver 00:08:33.920 --> 00:08:38.520 of climate change, then we can do something as a city. 00:08:38.520 --> 00:08:42.080 In our transport development planning, in which we improve the opportunities for 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:43.880 cyclists and pedestrians. 00:08:43.880 --> 00:08:47.880 For example, the city is very compact, 30 three 00:08:47.880 --> 00:08:53.080 kilometers in cross-section, so many, many ways can be solved by bicycle. 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:55.640 Of course, the conditions have to be there. 00:08:55.640 --> 00:08:59.640 And another point, which may not be so obvious, but 00:08:59.640 --> 00:09:03.640 which is always important to me: I had talked about 00:09:03.640 --> 00:09:08.200 the high vacancy rate, apartments, factories and the like. 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:12.200 And if you don't demolish a derelict factory, but 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:16.200 gut it and make it available for housing, then that 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:20.080 is also an expression of sustainability for me. 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:23.560 I save myself the shell and the many. 00:09:23.560 --> 00:09:27.560 The 80 industrial wastelands that we have in the city, which 00:09:27.560 --> 00:09:30.760 are of course also disturbing, which disturb 00:09:30.760 --> 00:09:33.760 well-being, which disturb the cityscape. 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:36.680 There is potential. 00:09:36.680 --> 00:09:40.680 And that's why we deliberately didn't designate single-family 00:09:40.680 --> 00:09:44.680 house areas on greenfield sites, for example, but the pressure 00:09:44.680 --> 00:09:48.680 that has now come from people also investing in housing construction 00:09:48.680 --> 00:09:53.680 has been directed as far as possible to the brownfields that we have. 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:55.720 An old factory is so unused in the front. 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:59.160 The former post office has been converted into housing, the 00:09:59.160 --> 00:10:02.160 former brewery has been converted into apartments. 00:10:02.160 --> 00:10:06.160 So there are and then of course these are usually plots 00:10:06.160 --> 00:10:09.640 of land in the best location, so that we don't have 00:10:09.640 --> 00:10:12.640 this Danube, the Danube development. 00:10:12.640 --> 00:10:16.640 So the core becomes empty and everything around it is 00:10:16.640 --> 00:10:20.640 condensed, but we have still tried to upgrade the city 00:10:20.640 --> 00:10:26.280 center and that means to revitalize the city center and free it from vacancies. 00:10:26.880 --> 00:10:30.880 It sounds as if a city can contribute a lot to 00:10:30.880 --> 00:10:34.400 sustainable development from your point of view. 00:10:34.400 --> 00:10:38.320 And these are all topics that we will deepen in this course here. 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:41.680 Whether it's about mobility or, of course, the important 00:10:41.680 --> 00:10:44.680 topic of land use and preservation of old buildings. 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:49.840 I would be interested to know again what role in your experience such 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:53.840 frameworks, such major policy documents, which we have also talked 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:57.840 about here in the lesson, such as the United Nations Sustainable 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:01.320 Development Goals or the new Leipzig Charter for the Design of Sustainable 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:03.080 Urban Development, play. 00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:06.680 Is that even important when you do local politics in 00:11:06.680 --> 00:11:09.680 everyday life or rather only on the sidelines? 00:11:10.680 --> 00:11:14.680 Well, I think I am convinced that these papers did 00:11:14.680 --> 00:11:19.480 not fall from the sky, but when you think of the new charter. 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:23.080 Experience has been incorporated, Luckenwalde 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:26.080 was also an urban city, i.e. around 2002. 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:30.080 This is a European funding program where integrative urban 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:35.080 development has already been taken care of and all fields had to be served. 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:36.560 In this respect. 00:11:36.560 --> 00:11:40.560 When I look at these papers, I find 00:11:40.560 --> 00:11:44.880 many things that we are already doing. 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:49.480 So I feel more vindicated by it and doesn't mean 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:52.640 that you didn't wait for these papers. 00:11:52.640 --> 00:11:56.640 If you can see, they were created in 2008, and in 00:11:56.640 --> 00:12:01.600 2008 we wrote our integrated urban development concept. 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:05.320 And if you put that on top of each other now, then we say okay, we're not wrong at 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:06.960 all. 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:10.160 The comparison is always useful to see where there are deviations, why are they 00:12:10.160 --> 00:12:11.800 there? 00:12:12.640 --> 00:12:15.640 Is that a need for action for us? 00:12:15.880 --> 00:12:19.880 But I think that this is now state of the art, so to speak, 00:12:19.880 --> 00:12:23.480 of how urban development is to be carried out today. 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:27.480 And I hope that we don't have to defend 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:31.480 ourselves and use these papers to help us 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:34.720 continue to set the right course for me. 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.440 At the same time, the new Leipzig Charter in particular also 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.440 contains a lot of sustainability discourse and it reflects, 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:47.440 among other things, that the three-pillar model, which is very 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:51.440 widespread, i.e. there is the green city, which means ecological 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:54.640 sustainability, something like climate change. 00:12:55.000 --> 00:12:59.000 There is the just city, which means social sustainability, social 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:02.720 cohesion, equal educational opportunities, such topics and 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.720 the productive city, i.e. economic sustainability. 00:13:06.280 --> 00:13:11.440 Now it's not so clean in practice, but there are sometimes conflicting goals. 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:15.480 So if I think at the moment a big topic is thermal insulation, 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:19.480 energy-efficient renovation, which at the same time makes housing 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:23.200 more expensive, so maybe where an ecological sustainability 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:26.200 goal jeopardizes a social sustainability goal or vice versa. 00:13:26.760 --> 00:13:30.760 Can you remember an example from your time in office where there 00:13:30.760 --> 00:13:34.760 was a dispute about it, i.e. where people wanted something 00:13:34.760 --> 00:13:37.880 different and everyone invoked sustainability? 00:13:43.040 --> 00:13:48.360 So from practical experience, I can't think of an example of this kind now. 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.960 It has to be said that housing construction, for example, 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:57.880 is not carried out directly by the city itself, but by our urban society. 00:13:57.880 --> 00:14:01.840 And now the conversion of a record is also in progress. 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:05.840 After all, 200 apartments, 2/3 of which are available for 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.240 holders of housing eligibility certificates. 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:13.240 So there is a lot of funding in it, in order to of course also 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.240 provide housing for these target groups that 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:19.240 would fall by the wayside with free financing. 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:23.320 The natural ecological aspect is a prerequisite for the funding. 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:25.960 Also come to light during the conversion. 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:27.600 Where it is 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:33.480 so, as already mentioned, the goals are quite undisputed. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:37.000 What is controversial is perhaps the order. 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:41.320 We have only limited resources, funds for one or the other. 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:43.000 What do you do first? 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:48.040 And we are now taking care of the expansion of an industrial area. 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.960 Or do we take care of the expansion of our daycare centers first? 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:56.720 Or are we now doing something in road construction 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:01.120 that is necessary to keep through traffic out of the city? 00:15:02.280 --> 00:15:05.560 So, and then maybe that's a bit pragmatic. 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:08.560 Subsidies always offer decision-making support. 00:15:08.560 --> 00:15:11.200 What programs are there and and if you. 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:15.200 So I wouldn't leave any program on the table now, because it, 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.200 um, because the measure in fifth place would be funded by it and 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:23.200 that the first measure number one, which you could only handle 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:26.920 with difficulty in the municipal budget, is then just the whole thing in first 00:15:26.920 --> 00:15:28.800 place. 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:30.760 So that. 00:15:30.760 --> 00:15:36.480 It's about financial viability and priorities that have to be set. 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.640 24 years as mayor, that's a long time. 00:15:41.640 --> 00:15:45.640 And if you look at the development of sustainability in this way, I 00:15:45.640 --> 00:15:49.640 would say that even in the time when it has developed from such a niche 00:15:49.640 --> 00:15:53.120 topic, it has become a very central topic that is indispensable in our society 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:54.880 today. 00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:57.680 Did you feel this change in any way? What did it have? 00:15:57.680 --> 00:16:01.680 Can you say that for him, for urban development in Luckenwalde, 00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:05.400 things were different at the beginning than now at the end due to this change in 00:16:05.400 --> 00:16:07.280 meaning? 00:16:07.640 --> 00:16:13.000 I think the change in meaning only came through the attribution of meaning. 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:16.320 So you described the three pillars earlier. 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:18.640 These were topics that always concern a city. 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:22.720 In the beginning there were figures, 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.720 high unemployment over 30%. 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:29.720 I think then everything would have been done to preserve 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.720 jobs, but a city can only do that to a limited extent, 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:38.160 i.e. infrastructure, so that companies can settle. 00:16:38.160 --> 00:16:41.200 But they also have to want to, they have to want to go to this city. 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:46.680 And here, for example, the transport connection is an important issue. 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:52.000 I would say that the concept of sustainability 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:55.600 encompasses all these urban development 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:58.600 issues that have always been there. 00:16:58.600 --> 00:16:59.600 This is new. 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:02.600 So the headline. 00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:05.000 So the 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:09.000 it is called something else, so to speak, which has been the topic 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:13.120 for a long time or has always been the topic under other titles. 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:16.920 A generic term, perhaps a generic term and which is also very contemporary. 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:18.200 We should not forget that either. 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.960 I find that a very interesting final word. 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.960 Thank you very much and those for 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:29.600 the participants of our course. 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:35.080 You can look forward to deepening many of these topics in the coming lessons.